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Chart ID: Is it Star Chart ID or is it Photometry Table ID?

WGR's picture
WGR
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A question came up while Beta testing the Transform Applier.  Do you enter the Star Chart ID number that is in the upper right hand corner of your chart, or do you enter the sequence identifier in your observation report--the one from the Photometry table?

I have always entered the star chart ID.  I think this is wrong.  I think what is required here is the Photometry Table Sequence.  Anyone else making the same mistake?  I know that when I have looked at this in the past, the same ID number was listed on the Star Chart and the PT Table.  Now they are not the same anymore.  Maybe I was remembering this wrong.  Before changing, lets hear from HQ. 

 

WGR

Gary

Re: Chart ID: Is it Star Chart ID or is it Photometry Table ID?
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hgeagle
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Hello Gary,

I am not HQ... smiley, but:

Looking at the example given in TA.zip  "sHya 2.txt" (i.e. 2164EAF as the Chart value in the sHya 2.txt file), the photometry table comes up in VSP. As you said, that makes sense.

Are you able to use TA currently? I tried it recently, but I am getting an "Internal Server Error", as can be seen in the report menu/window. I know that George Silvis is looking into this problem already, but I was wondering if anybody else gets currently the same error, or if it is something on my end, or if it has to do with the recent security breach at HQ?

Cheers,

Helmar (AHM)

 

Server Error
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Matthew Templeton
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Hi Helmar,

I'd fixed the problem as of around 1PM Eastern today (Wednesday) -- please try TA now and see if it works.

Matthew

Re: Server Error
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Hi Matthew,

Thanks! It seems to work now; I tried with the csv example file (Arne's data), and that appeared to work.

Then I tried with my own AIP4Win AAVSO report output  ->  not working right away. But I think that had to do with the CNAM and KNAM values I used (long versions), when I changed them to the short descriptors (such as 120 or 111) things started to work, too. I think we newbees of TA need a little better descriptions regarding formatting etc.

But no real criticism here! I am not even sure if the discussion regarding TA and the other nice new tools (e.g. Boxter etc.) has officially started anywhere - I would appreciate that, though...

Thanks again,

Helmar (AHM)

 

 

CNAME & KNAME
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WBY
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Helmar,

By long version do you mean the AUID? TA needs to accept AUID numbers because there are many charts that have more than 1 star with the same ID label. Look at XZ Cet, as an example. It has two stars labeled 107. You need to enter the AUID numbers to differentiate between them.It TA set up to accept AUID numbers?

 

Brad Walter 

CNAME & KNAME
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TA is looking for AUID's in the CNAME and KNAME fields. This is ideal. If chart label numbers are input then TA will try to identify the star, but as you point out, if there are duplicate labels on the chart then this will fail. For this same reason WebObs is looking for AUID's, not labels.

By long names I was referring to the combination of label+AUID. The PhotomCap program, a utility for preparing photometry data for AIP, has an option where it prepares the compstar names in this fashion. This solves a problem when identifiying stars in AIP, but it has the unfortunate result that these long names get into the AAVSO report generated by AIP. So I added a feature to TA that restricts CNAME and KNAME to 11 characters, the length of a AUID. If its longer I take the right most characters, effectively trimming of the labels if the submission was long form.

George

CNAME & KNAME
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WBY
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Thanks, George. I don't use AIP so I wasn't aware of that. Makes perfect sense. 

Brad Walter. 

OK, so what's the answer?
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WGR
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OK, so what's the answer?  Is it Chart ID or Photometry Table ID?

 

Gary

The answer
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HBB
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It's the ID for the photometry table.

 

Barbara

Photometry Table ID or Chart ID
WBY's picture
WBY
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Agree with Barbara. I checked to see if we need to do something to make things more clear, but

1. The legend at the bottom of the charts states "Please use the photometry table for CCD observations."

2. The legend under the photometry table states 
"Report this sequence as: < SEQUENCE ID> in the chart field of your observation report."

So I think this should be clear and the bold red caps catch the eye. The only suggestion that we might think about implementing is to put the same caption above the photometry sequence as well as below it. Some sequences are more than a page long when printed, and most people probably only look at the first page. I have no idea how much trouble that would be to implement. 

Brad Walter

Chart ID
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HBB
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Brad,

I agree about putting the sequence ID at the top because when I print out a table I only print the first page.  The other thing that would be nice is putting a date that the sequence was last updated somewhere on the page.

 

Barbara

chartID
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HQA
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The Visual Format and the Extended Format both specify chartID, usually provided on the chart that you plot.  Another "chartID"  was added to the sequence table because you can, with the VSP GUI, just ask for a photometry table without a chart.  As far as the AAVSO is concerned, both versions of the chartID will produce the same photometry table, so which you use is not important.  I don't know if that is the case with TransformApplier, though; George can tell us.

To make it easier for the researcher, I suggest that you use the chartID as shown on the actual finding chart when filling in that field in the Extended Format file.

We are planning several improvements for the chart plotter this summer.  Will is recoding the underlying software to make it easier to maintain.  Matt is ensuring that the sequence returned with a given chartID corresponds to the values in the comparison star database as of the date the chart was plotted.  We've thought about providing on the photometry table the date of the last calibration update for a field, and also informing the user when they submit data through WebObs if the sequence for any target has changed since the chartID date they provide.  In addition, there will be a major calibration revision when APASS DR9 is released later this year.  Hopefully, all of these changes will come soon!

Arne

ChartID for TA
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SGEO
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TA needs the chartid of a phtometry table. This it can read and extract the comparison star photometry. If it is given the chartID of a chart, all it get's is the chart picture, which is of no use to a software program.

Cheers

George

chartID
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Thanks, George - I think that clarifies what the descriptions need to be.

For visual observations / Visual Format, the chartID field should be that of the finding chart.

For CCD observations / Extended Format, the chartID field should be that of the photometry table.

I'll have the text revised to make this clear.

Arne

Chart ID vs. Sequence ID Update Implications
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WBY
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So Arne, 

If the chart and chart labels don't change, only some details in the sequence change in a way that doesn't affect the chart - a magnitude in the third decimal place or the uncertainty estimate, If I understand your post correctly, it means the chart would get a new ID as well as the sequence. That doesn't seem to agree with some circumstances I seem to remember, but my memory is frequently faulty. 

Brad Walter, WBY

Hi Brad,If you print a new
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FRF
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Hi Brad,

If you print a new chart of the same star, but with a different scale, you get a new chart ID. The chart ID relates to the very moment and the very setup of the specific chart printed. Even if the sequence of let say CH Cyg have not changed in 2 years, but sequence of other stars changed, so there was a change in the VSD, so you'll get a different chart ID each time you generate a new chart using VSP.

Clear skies,

Robert

 

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