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Stacking bug

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David Benn
David Benn's picture
Stacking bug

Look at the date on this (average) stacked image.

The source images were 11:??:?? but the stacked image is 23:27:09. Odd no?

David

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MZK
MZK's picture
Stacking Time

David:

My first question is why you are stacking 6 images from two different days, and also separated by 7 days? Actually, the stacked time is about right - the algorithm sets the stack time as the mid time of the stacked images. In this case with about 7.0 days between, the mid point would be 3.5 days, thus the 23:27?

It is logical in terms of the arithmetic of the common mid-time algorithm.  I would have stacked the images from each day separately, which makes more sense to me?

Ken

David Benn
David Benn's picture
Sigh

Please ignore me Ken.

Can't believe I did that and wasted your time looking at this post.

That's what happens when I've done such a thing late at night and looked at it quickly early in the morning.

Apologies. How embarrassing.

David

peter.williams@...
peter.williams@acadiau.ca's picture
small follow up question

Hi,

So if you stack images in VPHOT it sets the time of the stacked images to be the midtime of the image set?

Does it take exposure time into account? I.e if you stacked two images with different exposure times, would it weight the average of the times towards the image with the longer exposure?

Thank you,

Peter  

spp
spp's picture
stacking time

Peter,

I think for stacking to work the exposures must all be the same, but I'm not sure exactly how VPhot reports the time for a stacked image. 

My guess would be that it reports the mid point between the start of the first exposure and the start of the last exposure.

Phil

MZK
MZK's picture
stack time

Hi Peter:

Interesting question. I'm in the process of checking this out. I have short images (10s) and longer images (90s) of multiple LPVs that I collect so I do not have to worry about whether an LPV is faint or bright during imaging.

I just tabulated the VPhot displayed image time in the image list AND fits header times and image durations for these images. This will tell me what happens when I stack two images of different durations. I will report soon?

HOWEVER, there is NO reason why you cannot do the same thing. ;-)  It is not that difficult! You need to look at both the displayed image time (image list), and the image times and image duration time in the image headers. It should just require a little arithmetic? There is a little wrinkle that you should discover. Try even vs. odd number of stacked images. What did you discover? There is a reason for what Geir Klingenberg decided to do with respect to reported time!

In fact, I would prefer that you do this. It is the type of thing I have the participants do during the VPhot course. Are you willing to take a stab at this effort? It will show you what VPhot does to calculate these times, certainly for equal duration images!

BTW, in general I'm not sure why you would want to do this often? Typically, you want to improve SNR by stacking replicate images of equal duration OR, in my case above, I would use the long image if the target was faint and the short image if the target were bright/saturated. Do you have a particular routine where this is not done? Also keep in mind that you are only stacking images that you do not expect to vary over the total imaging duration. In such a circumstance, the exact time of constant magnitude is not particularly important BUT let's just deal with your question first rather than debate that comment.

Ken

SGEO
SGEO's picture
VPhot stacking methodology

These are interesting questions which should be answerable without experimentation! If there are folks out there who would like to read the code, I would be happy to share access to the repo. It's VBNet code. :(

The VPhot team has been marking time for the past year and more with other priorities keeping us tied. up. The team is currently made up of myself and Ken and Diane Menzies. I have fond hopes of getting back to work on VPhot this year to answer questions like this stacking issue and address the large pile of suggestions we have accumulated for improving VPhot.

George

 

MZK
MZK's picture
Experimentation

Hi George:

This is ALWAYS where we will disagree! As a chemist, experimentation is ingrained in my approach to photometry and to teaching.

Often (I'm not saying it is true in this case or always), members ask questions that require only a little "observation" to answer. I feel that is the BEST way to learn.

Ken

PS: Learning is most effective with a combination of listening, reading, teaching, AND practicing/doing, not just one of these.

 

peter.williams@...
peter.williams@acadiau.ca's picture
i 'll give it a go

Ken,

I will try what you sugested re experimenting with various combinations.

I just asked about the different exposure times because I had some images I collected on a night where I ws having some difficulty with my guiding and I was experimenting so see what kind of exposure time I could get without too much elongation and I was hoping to use them all if possible.

Seems like it is not a great idea.

Peter  

MZK
MZK's picture
Stack Issues

Hi Peter:

Stacking is clearly a technique to improve signal to noise ratio by adding up all adu values in individual pixels in multiple images, after which VPhot allows averaging or median selection of signal and then divides by noise which only increases by the sqrt of signal. Signal/noise ratio (SNR) should improve with more stacked images by about sqrt N.

Except, I would suspect that if you add adu values as I did for a 10 sec image and a 90 sec image and then average (cut in half), the average signal would be less than (not same as) that in the longer image. I suspect that is not what you want to do?  Of course, the noise is reduced by sqrt.

When I did my stack test, the stack image SNR was clearly less than that of the longer image and more than that of the shorter image. What happened when you stacked your different duration images? BTW, I suspect your image durations were not as extreme as mine? If you got a similar result, it confirms that stacking images of different duration will not give you what you were looking for. It would be best just to use the longer image. Of course, you had image problems and you tried something else. That’s good, but it didn’t give you the result you expected/desired?

For the stack image time stamp question, I tabulated the different times used by VPhot. VPhot displays a date/time in the image list. You can also find the image start time and image duration in the fits headers.

You will notice that the time displayed on the image list is usually the midpoint time calculated from the fits header start time plus ½ the image duration. That is, normal for the displayed time of each individual image BUT not for a stacked image. When VPhot was created, Geir Klingenberg tried to avoid displaying identical times in the image list. IF, an odd number of images were stacked (e.g., 3), the displayed time of the stacked image would be identical to the displayed time of the middle image. To avoid this “confusion”, he decided to display the start time of the stacked image. However, the reported time in the AAVSO report of this stacked image is still the midpoint of that stacked average image. This would normally be true if the stacked images were all of the same duration. In my case where the images had distinctly different durations, VPhot actually ended up assuming the stacked image duration was 90s rather than some average of 10s and 90s. I guess one might consider this a bug? It certainly is an anomaly? Again, not something which would occur for stacked images of equal duration. Oh well!  ;-(

Ken

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TRE
TRE's picture
Server Error in '/app'

Server Error in '/app' Application.

Unable to load DLL 'PhotLib.dll': The specified module could not be found. (Exception from HRESULT: 0x8007007E)

Description: An unhandled exception occurred during the execution of the current web request. Please review the stack trace for more information about the error and where it originated in the code.

Exception Details: System.DllNotFoundException: Unable to load DLL 'PhotLib.dll': The specified module could not be found. (Exception from HRESULT: 0x8007007E)

Source Error:
 

Line 34: method = 1
Line 35: End If
Line 36: PhotLib.doStack2(stack.NbrOfFiles, stack.Files, newfilepath, stack.OffsetX(0), stack.OffsetY(0), stack.Width, stack.Height, method)
Line 37:
Line 38: ' Write the updated headers, date and time

Source File: C:\inetpub\wwwroot\app\restricted\Stack.aspx.vb    Line: 36

Stack Trace:
 

[DllNotFoundException: Unable to load DLL 'PhotLib.dll': The specified module could not be found. (Exception from HRESULT: 0x8007007E)]
PhotLib.doStack2(Int32 n, String files, String newfile, Int32& offsetX, Int32& offsetY, Int32 width, Int32 height, Int32 stacktype) +0
Restricted_Stack.btnStack_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) in C:\inetpub\wwwroot\app\restricted\Stack.aspx.vb:36
System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.OnClick(EventArgs e) +9816434
System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.RaisePostBackEvent(String eventArgument) +204
System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.System.Web.UI.IPostBackEventHandler.RaisePostBackEvent(String eventArgument) +12
System.Web.UI.Page.RaisePostBackEvent(IPostBackEventHandler sourceControl, String eventArgument) +15
System.Web.UI.Page.RaisePostBackEvent(NameValueCollection postData) +35
System.Web.UI.Page.ProcessRequestMain(Boolean includeStagesBeforeAsyncPoint, Boolean includeStagesAfterAsyncPoint) +1639

 

Version Information: Microsoft .NET Framework Version:4.0.30319; ASP.NET Version:4.7.2623.0

MZK
MZK's picture
Stack Error??

Hi Ray:

Not sure if you were trying to stack images, but if you were, the work around is to open one of the images first and then go back to the image list.

Stacking should work the second time. This workaround was noted earlier by others. Advise success or failure? Not sure why, but this seems to work.

HTH, Ken

TRE
TRE's picture
work-around

Thanks Ken

I'll try that. Meanwhile, I have a work-around that I can't seem to quantify yet.

One thing; i did have one image wthout a name and no WCS. But I was not using that image to stack. If stacking looks at every image rather than just the ones being stacked, that could cause an error.

Second thing, I had a list solved images from both sides of the meridian, but was stacking just 10 on the same side of the meridian.

Again, if stacking looks at every image in the list rather than just the ones being stacked, that could possibly cause confusion.

 

RayTRE

TRE
TRE's picture
nevermind

it began to work when 6 images were stacked rather than 10 or 7.

Also some judicious, superstitious, magic clicking around the stack window.

The problem has been ongoing for a couple days.

 

RayTRE

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